No Confidence in the .380
August 7th, 2008 by Syd
From Rangemaster:
This past Sunday evening there was a very instructive incident in East Memphis. A couple was in town for a special event, and were staying at a local hotel. They got into a domestic dispute, and the wife became quite angry and picked up the .380 semi-auto her husband had brought along. From a few feet away, she shot him in the head with the .380. At that point, he moved quickly, causing her second shot to miss. He then grabbed the gun away from her and went outside and called the police on his cell phone. When police and paramedics arrived, they found that the bullet had entered the skin on his head, and burrowed around a few inches without entering the skull. This left what the officer described as a “mole tunnel” in the skin. The shootee refused to be taken to the hospital, and was treated and released at the scene by the paramedics. At no time did he lose consciousness or the ability to fight back.
This is a perfect example of why we say the .380 is not adequate as a defensive round. This lack of effectiveness is the rule with this caliber, not the exception.
See Also: .380 Redux and Other Mouseguns
My thoughts exactly Syd.
These incidences are available as anecdotal evidence in every caliber, except the magnums. They happen much more frequently with some than others though.
The same thing has happened with .38 Special, 9mm and .45 ACP.
It’s mostly bullet construction. A solid round nosed bullet will sometimes deflect and circle the skull instead of penetrate.
The answer is to use a hollowpoint or a Kieth type semi-wadcutter.
Check out bowling pin shooters, they have problems getting a solid hit and a downed pin rather than a deflection.
I carry a .380 and a .45. I carry the .380 because I will always carry it, even going out to get the newspaper in the morning. The .45 is sometimes too much trouble for something trivial like that.
Each to his own, and yes, I have heard similar stories on the .38 and the 9mm, although never on the .45. The difference is that with the .38 and the 9mm, I know that if I do my part, they will do theirs. I just don’t have the same confidence with the .380.
[…] Or rather not so much. […]
This is a very common and highly documented occurrence and is NOT caliber dependent. It is simple physics. A round object hitting a round object at an angle.
Talked recently with a guy who is still carrying a .380 slug in his back, docs said it was more trouble to remove then leave in place. Said it didn’t even slow him down at the time, thought he had been punched. Biggest problems now is getting through airport security!! LOL
I have seen people DRT with.22 LR out of a 2 inch hand gun and a kid hit dead center by a .240 gr .44 mag live to walk out of the hospital.
All handgun rounds are crap shot with your life as the bet.
Hmmm… Sound a lot like this story from Jeff Cooper:
In a recent curious case the subject was struck in the left side of the face
by a 380. The bullet was deflected by his jawbone down through his neck and
into his torso beneath the shoulder blade. The subject did not respond to
the blow, walked to the ambulance, was treated at the hospital for infection
and sent home with a Tylenol. According to the account he was laughing and
joking with bystanders throughout the experience and did not return for
medical assistance on the following day. Moral: If you insist on using a
miniature sidearm, confine your hits to the eye sockets.
Jeff Cooper
From Jeff Cooper’s Commentaries
Vol. 4, No. 3
February 1996
That’s the disappointing truth of all handgun rounds, they’re inherently underpowered.
It would be hard for me to preach shot placement over and over knowing the falsehood of “man stoppers,” and then at the same time point to an instance of poor shot placement and deflection of a shallow angle of impact as proof of the superiority of one underpowered projectile over another. In the end her fortunate failure wasn’t in the caliber pistol she used, but lack of proficiency with her chosen weapon of anger.
The Good Colonel’s advice is sound.
A .380 will also do the job if you do yours. (This assumes that “your job” is to secure a solid hit to the CNS.) How “adequate” it may be depends more heavily on the adequacy of the shooter and circumstance than more substantial calibers.
A handgun has always been a marginal thing on which to stake your life. The .380 has always been a marginal handgun caliber. That said, a competently-managed .380 in pocket is infinitely better than a 1911 left at home because it was too cumbersome.
Nothing really new to ponder, I’m afraid.
I know serious operators who use .45’s. I know serious operators who use 9mm’s. I have never once met a serious operator who used a .380 for anything other than a paper weight.The .380 is an obsolete cartridge, plain and simple. With the compact 9mm’s we have these days, there is simply no reason to use a .380, and no, I have absolutely no confidence that if I do my job, the .380 will do its. Most likely, it won’t.
Federal Hydra-shok with muzzle velocity at 1000 ft/sec and 200 ft-lbs of energy, admittedly not the ideal self-defense characteristics but, as an expert in the field might say, a .380 in your hand beats a .45 in your wall safe…
Shot placement is critical: vital organs, knee or hip joints, juggular, throat, center mass…the human body is a virtual target rich environment when your life depends on it.
Yup, and a .45 in your hand beats a .380 in your hand any day. In fact, just about anything except a .32 beats a .380. You guys can kid yourself all you want, but the .380 is only about half a step above shooting spitwads.
There is a Vietnam-era helicopter pilot who has a souvenir helmet with a 12.7mm hole in either side of it, which is why I don’t trust any pussy .50BMG and carry a 14.5mm DShK.
The cranial vault is tougher than most people think.
Handguns are a lot less powerful than most people think. (Yes, even the “mighty” .45)
Ball ammunition is a lousy stopper and often deflects from skulls and ribs.
Wow, judging from comments my only option is to carry an AR slung over shoulder from now on!
tweaker
Sure, a .380’s not much — now, go downrange and catch one in your teeth.
What, no? Okay; I want to be fair. How about a .25? The caliber Col. Cooper said was mostly good for being able to tell baddies, “I have a gun!”
Won’t catch that, either?
Darn skippy. It could hurt.
Like everything else, choice of caliber is not so much about what will put a zombie down 100% of the time (answer, “nothing.” I’ve seen those movies) as it is about acceptable risk.
Like toothpaste brands, that’s a matter of personal choice. Mr. Lott (et al) tells us the general odds are that some 9 defensive handgun uses in 10, no shots are fired. For those, 4.25 Liliput would be adequate; a pellet gun would be adequate, or a toy, as long as it looked real.
So, long odds of actually needing a gun at all (kind of like seat belts and fire extinguishers, which I would not do without, either), one-in-ten of having to shoot if you do, and what, maybe 50-50 the sound and fury will send the baddie running?
Any gun is better than no gun. It’s not just nice words.
I’ll carry my toy-Colt .380 (Pony Pocketlite) and hardly notice; I’ll usually carry one of my little Stars (BKM or PD, in 9mm and .45) happily enough. But the Witness compact? The Ballester-Molina? Naw. Too Dadratted Big. Too Heavy. I make excuses and leave the house socially nekkid.
So I am better off with a .380. Other people? Other neighbohoods? Your mileage will vary. No sidearm is a sure-thing manstopper. You pays your money and you makes your bet.
[…] A few bloggers have commented approvingly of the admonition from the instructors at Rangemaster, and I can partially agree: the .380 is not a round I would voluntarily rely upon to protect myself and my family. I am mildly bewildered, however, at the dogmatism with which some folks attack sub-caliber pistols. […]
I also carry a 380 ACP, I also sometimes carry a 25ACP and mostly a 1911A1, my weapon of choice is of course the 1911.
When the occasion or what I’m wearing dictate I will carry the smaller guns, the 25 is a hammer fired pocket gun, I leave one in the tube with the hammer down, just cock and fire, one handed, also it is loaded with Glaser Safety slugs, I would aim for center torso with this.
The 380 rides in a in the pants holster, also hammer down on a loaded chamber, also cock and fire one handed, loaded with hot handloaded 90 gr HP rounds. Also have a shoulder rig for the 380, don’t use it often, mostly as a backup for the 45.
1911 is also in a in the pants holster, cocked and locked, with Hornady XTP handloads, 200gr. and max load.
These and combinations of them cover almost any situation for me.
And as has been said before, any gun you will carry all the time is better than one you leave home because it is too big or hard to conceal.
I owned a Cobra .380, worst gun ever. Shot 50 rounds and jammed up at least 8 times.
The truly phenomenal RPM that a bullet (most any bullet) rotates at has a lot to due with these trick ballistics. That’s why a large total mass velocity doesn’t necessarily prevent an odd course a round may take after initial impact.
Strange ballistics aside, I doubt anyone is still normally maneuverable while being hit with even a .25, especially if a magazine is emptied into our replacement for ballistic gel target stand in.
Yeah, the first round he caught with his teeth. What did the next six rounds do?
First,
Syd, I’m glad you’re still writing.
Second,
Sometimes you just need something more subtle than a 1911. I just bought a Bersa thunder .380. It shoots OK, I need more practice with it…which is fine with me as I love shooting anyway and .380 is cheaper than .45.
Primary/High Threat area? 1911, no doubt about it.
Low threat or subtle carry required? Gotta go with the Bersa. 7 Hydrashocks are damn unpleasant regardless of caliber and the aim is to stop the threat. How you do it is up to you, as long as you stop it. If you have a choice between a .380 and nothing, I’d rather have the .380. Then again, my ultimate choice is to avoid the problem all together, but that’s a whole ‘nother story.
All of the standard calibers can have problems stopping someone.
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15
That is an FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin article that details the myth of calibers and one stop shots.
One goblin was hit “five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground.” Another case: “six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect.” Or the guy shot 13 times with 9mm who still ran several blocks to a friends house before he collapsed.
Drug use was not mentioned, and if it was an issue, I think an FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin article would mention it. The only substance needed was adrenaline. As someone said, “pain is not important for survival.” Once you know you are safe, you will feel pain. But the pain can’t distract you from trying to get away from the tiger.
It has been a while since I read the LEB article in the previous post. What I didn’t remember is that it contains a table detailing the shooting death of LEOs. “Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed in the Line of Duty with Firearms 1993-2002″ What is surprising about this data is that a fair number of cops were killed with small caliber ammunition (.22, .25 and .32) even while they were wearing body armor.
Is bigger better? Probably. But the small calibers will you just as dead, or defend you if you can count on accurate shooting.
I’d never own a .380 (aka 9mm Kurz {short}), never own a .25. If I had no other arm, I’d gladly be given either & cope with the limitations. My carry weapon is a puny .38 Charter Undercover. Useless weapon, unless you consider the shootings of George Wallace, John Lennon, & a lot of less-famous folks.
It ain’t the singer, it’s the song: it’s not the weapon, it’s where the round goes. Col. Cooper said a .22 was fine, if you put it in the tear duct.
It’s funny, ‘cuz I’ve harbored quite a bit of disdain for the .380 for several years anyway.
I carry a .32 ACP.
As a backup to my 1911. And there ain’t nothin’ cumbersome about it.