Grizzly Bears and the .357 Magnum
February 28th, 2007 by Syd
A search term that seems to bring a lot of people here is some combination of “Grizzly Bear” and “.357 Magnum.” It seems that a lot of folks are interested in the question of whether the .357 Magnum provides adequate protection against grizzly bears or not. I am not a big game hunter but I have camped in bear country and been closer to them than I ever desired to be. So, the following is a moderately informed opinion, but not what you’d call expert advice, and if Yogi gets you on your next trip to Jellystone, don’t blame me.
First, I’d like to offer a bit of history on the building of the .357 Magnum legend. Back in the 30’s when Smith & Wesson introduced the .357 Magnum, they wanted to demonstrate the great power of the cartridge. To this end, they hired professional hunters and equipped them with large N-frame revolvers with 8” barrels. These guns were loaded with the largest bullets and hottest loads they could handle without blowing up. With their loads, bullets, and long barrels, these revolvers produced awesome terminal ballistics. These expert hunters went into the field with these supercharged handguns and took elk, moose, and bears. A legend is born. The .357 Magnum will bring down a grizzly bear.
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause.
A note on grizzly bears: they are smart, strong, mean, bulky, motivated and fast. The grizzly bear is the one predator in North America that truly inspires terror in my heart. No matter what you can do, he can do it better. He or she can be merciless in defending turf or litter, and may just kill you for kicks.
Because Smith & Wesson’s expert hunters with their hard-hitting revolvers were able to bring down bears with a .357 Magnum, does that mean that your Scandium framed 2” snubnose with wussy off-the-shelf loads will be able to do the same? Probably not. The expert hunter stalks the prey and takes the shot from the optimal range and angle. Ideally, the bear does not even know he’s in danger. If you are hiking a trail and come upon a bear unexpectedly, you will not have the advantages of position, concealment and surprise. You will be drawing quickly and trying to get a shot off against a rapidly moving animal that may weigh 800 lbs. or so, and with a gun having considerably less power than the revolvers upon which the legend was built. In this scenario, the chances of getting a rapidly disabling hit on the bear drop to next to nothing. Unless you are extremely lucky, the bear is going to win this one. The .357 Magnum has the penetration to reach vital organs in the bear, but what are the chances of making that shot in an emergency?
In this observer’s humble opinion, the .357 Magnum is marginal at best for protection against bears. I would want something considerably larger. In handguns, the .44 Magnum would be my baseline. A 12 gauge Express Magnum loaded with slugs would be a lot better.
See also: John Farnam on Grizzly Bear Defense
Having spent 8 years in Alaska with it’s resident population of Grizzlies, I would often ask my friends why they carried a 44 Magnum when outdoors. “Bear Medicine” was their usual answer. “Would you hunt Grizzlies with a 30-30?” I would ask. “No”, they would reply…”that’s a pipsqueak cartridge”. “Then why would you bet your life on a cartridge with less power than a 30-30,” I would ask. My bet is on the 12 gauge with alternating slugs & 00 buck.
First off, you walk into YNP with any gun and your ass is in jail. Second, you shoot and miss that bear which your odds are 8 times out of 10, you can then KISS your ass goodbye. Why don’t you carry some bear spray? That’s all I carry, never had a problem and it worked both times I was in a predicament. F—ing men! Wussies!
First of all, we’re talking about guns here lady, not the entire broad universe of bear management. The question is of the effectiveness of a particular cartridge against a bear.
Second, maybe we want to shoot the bastards.
“The question is of the effectiveness of a particular cartridge against a bear. Second, maybe we want to shoot the bastards.”
I think your aggression towards bears would be better directed towards sex. At least that feels good. Believe it or not, some women prefer aggressive sex. try that. What on earth kind of pleasure could you possibly get from shooting such a beautiful massive creature? I still hold firm on my 8 to 10 odds, but hey, if that’s how you get your “rocks” off, good luck.
About that second entry, I feel that way sometimes towards men, as they can’t seem to keep their paws of me, but I abstain. AND it’s illegal, so is killing bears BTW. Men can also be beautiful massive creatures, obnoxious, but beautiful. Hope you change your mind…
I generally reject and have very little use for the guns=sex equation. The gun grabbers are fond of using this rhetorical line, usually in far more abusive terms than you have here. It is really pseudo-Freudian psychobabble. Perhaps there is some penis compensation that goes on with some gun users, but in the main it is a very inadequate psychological model. The basic implication that we shoot our guns because we aren’t having sex and if we had more sex, we wouldn’t care about our guns is flawed reasoning and does not stand up to honest analysis.
As I said at the outset, I’m not much of a hunter and if I never shoot another animal, it will be fine with me. I also do not like to camp in areas where there are Grizzly bears. I had a couple of encounters with them long before there was bear spray, and I really don’t like them. If they all died off tomorrow, I wouldn’t shed a tear.
In regard to the aggressive sex, are you volunteering for the project?
I’m trying to visualize how the classified ad would read:
54-year-old WM, clean, drug-free, witty, charming and heavily armed, seeks F for aggressive sex to cure my gun fetish. Must be clean, proportional and have her own hearing protection. Race, age and nationality unimportant. Kevlar lingerie a plus but not required. Only serious inquiries please.
Well I was trying to bring a little humor (okay so it was a bit off color) to the conflict we are having.
I certainly don’t REALLY think it has anything to do with size of member. Perhaps I was loudly emphasizing how I would wish for you to keep your gun loving self BUT throw away your uncontrollable negativity towards bears. Bears, and I will regress here, f—ing rock! The bigger the better, in this case anyway. See where I am going here? Like this…the next time you have an urge to aim your carbine at a bear, pick up the latest swim suit issue and rub that vision away. A nice distraction to your not so nice thoughts.
Not to mention that IF you ever do go out camping where Grizzlies are, don’t be surprised if some sweet lil’ darlin’ isn’t off trail glassing them…
;)
We’re getting dangerously close to my funkiness threshold and I don’t want to start moderating comments because I’m enjoying the discussion, capiche?
I feel it necessary to reiterate that this post is not about bear hunting or the relative merits of shooting or not shooting bears. It’s about the hypothetical question (which brings a lot of traffic here) of the performance of a particular cartridge against a bear should someone attempt to defend themselves with a gun against a bear.
With that said, there are a lot of folks who believe that the large predators should never be hunted or culled. I don’t subscribe to that position. In my mind, there comes a point at which human safety and survival takes primacy over that of the predator. A good example is the guy who was attacked recently by a panther and his wife had to beat the cat off with a stick. The rangers found the cat and killed it. I am really OK with that.
If there is no hunting or culling, the population of the large predators will expand to the point that it will become a real problem. We are already seeing that in my neck of the woods. The conservationists have been working to re-establish the black bear population in the the Big South Fork area of Kentucky and Tennessee. They have been very successful, so successful that the bears are coming into towns and farms, killing livestock and family pets, and menacing people. There needs to be some balance between the ideals of the pure conservationists and the practical concerns of human safety and agriculture. I think managed hunting fits into that equation.
Getting back on track….
How doe the .454, .460 and .500 cartridge compare with the .44 Magnum — in terms of bear stopping power?
As I said at the outset, I’m not a big game hunter, so I don’t know how much my opinion is worth. I’ve never fired a .454. I have fired the .460 and .500 in the long-barreled versions. Their ballistics are really in the range of rifle performance, and I figure either one would work. Guns Magazine has a new article about the snubnose .460 and .500 that addresses this fairly directly.
See
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/F0307.html
That “person” sounds like another case of Bear chow walkin’. Antagonistic toward ol’ Griz ? You bet your bippy. Take your Bear loving self into the woods with naught but oleoresin capsicum if you want but leave the rest of us without your “sense of humor”. Like the other ding-ding who “just loooooved the big Bruins you will soon be the appetizer for the Bear. “Sweet l’il darin’ off the trail glassin’ ‘em?” More like the mountain that dresses like a female.
“Timothy Treadwell (April 29, 1957 – October 5, 2003), born Timothy Dexter, was an American environmentalist and bear enthusiast who lived among the coastal grizzly bears of Katmai National Park in Alaska for approximately 13 seasons. At the end of his thirteenth season in the park in 2003, he and his girlfriend Amie Huguenard (age 37) were killed and partially eaten by a grizzly bear. The attack was notable because of the unusual lifestyle of the victims, and the survival of an audio recording of the attack….
…In October 2003, Treadwell and his physician assistant girlfriend, Amie Huguenard, visited Katmai National Park in Alaska. Treadwell, who never carried any means of defense against bear attacks, chose to set his campsite near a salmon stream where Grizzlies commonly feed in the fall. Treadwell was in the park later in the year than usual, at a time when bears fight to gain as much fat as possible before winter and limited food supplies cause them to be more aggressive than in other months. It has been noted that food was scarce that fall, so that the grizzly bears were more aggressive than usual…
…Treadwell and Huguenard’s bodies were discovered by the Kodiak air taxi pilot who had arrived at their campsite to pick them up. Treadwell’s head, partial backbone, and left forearm/hand still wearing his wrist watch were recovered at the scene. Huguenard’s partial remains were found near the encampment, somewhat buried in a mound of twigs and dirt. A large, female grizzly (tagged Bear 141) protecting the campsite was killed by park rangers while they attempted to retrieve the bodies. A second adolescent bear was killed a short time later after it charged the park rangers…”
I used to hunt with my Dad and Uncles a long time ago. The last deer I shot (many times repeatedly) made me feel so bad I haven’t hunted since.
Shortly before that I took down a Brown Bear with an M1 Carbine. I wanted to tan the hyde but there were so many holes in it, it could barely cast a shadow. All I can say is it was a good thing the Carbine pumps out a lot of rounds fast and I am a fairly decent shot. Otherwise, the outcome may have been very different.
Let’s hope Grizzers don’t take a liking to pepper spray. My choice for Bear repellant will remain distance and and hot-fast lead.
Hey, if she wants to have sex with me, fine. But an hour or two later, if I’m in the woods and a bear comes at me, I’ll be thankful for having the proper gun with me. I have a degree in Psych and my liking guns has nothing to do with virility or penis issues. If she goes out there alone, she’ll get eaten alive, and I don’t think it’s the kind of fun she counted on.
I am not a hunter. I target shoot pistols and rifles for recreation. And I am certainly no authority on bears or how to kill them.
Relying on anything without enough stopping power to knock down a bear seems foolish to me. Wild animals are just that— wild and unpredictable. Confronting a bear without a gun capable of stoppng the bear and penetrating his thick boned skull and without the skill to use the gun effectively is a irreverseable error.
There are enough bear free ares to camp in without tempting fate. I would rather camp in a bear free area then rely on luck and the bear’s fear of humans, if they do fear humans, for protection. I would carry the largest caliber handgun or shotgun that I could shoot accurately if I were in bear country. Of course, I would be alert and attempt to not encounter them accidently. Carrying a noise maker would also be prudent in bear country.
mike h. hi. i’m really a novis atall this hunting stuff but i dont know what all the abreviations mean that all of you put in your comments. would you please spell things out! I’m 68 last month and have never been hunting with a gun in my life. I’m willing to learn too. i have several pistols that i have used for target shooting a 12ga. pump and a 22. the 12 ga. has 2 barrels. one reg. and one rifled. thats my knollege of hunting guns. the wife and i would like to drive to alaska, to meet relatives there. but i would like to have a guide take me hunting. what is puzzling me is the sizing of slugs. could any of you fine folks explain the differences between the .357mag., .44, .45.,454, .460 and i know the .50 pistol,i held one at a store, that is a massive pistol. Is that .50 cal. in rifles too.
First to newby Michael: Caliber is the diameter of projectile or bore size. So a .357mag is approximately 0.357inches, a .44 is 0.44x inches (not sure of the exact size), a .50cal is 0.500 inches etc. It IS the same for rifles. A 9mm is also the caliber, although I have never heard it called a “9mm Cal.”
This is the 1911 forum… what about the effects of a 45 hot load on a bear?
I’m a fan of the 12 guage shotgun with slugs for a bear stopper. However, a point should be discussed about dangerous wildlife, and stopping the attack.
Many years ago, the Africian hunters established that you should carry a double rifle when dealing with serious life threatening wildlife.
Their reasoning is simple and basic. If for any reason your firearms fails to function properly, there is no time for a failure drill. You need an immediate second weapon to fight for your life. They figured the double rifle was that chance. If a firing pin breaks, on one side, you have another with a double rifle or shotgun. Anything else, pump, automatic and your left with a 10 lb. club.
I remember another living old alaskian guide who always carried the double shotgun with the best slugs money can buy. He said, “If you have to stop the charge, your going to be very close to your target. Aim for the open mouth and give both barrels to the bear.”
I think it’s pretty safe to say that there isn’t any handgun, even the big .45-.50 magnum revolvers, with sufficient stopping power to reliably stop a grizzly attack. There are plenty of documented cases of these critters taking multiple solid hits from heavy magnum rifles without significant immediate effect. Sure, a bear solidly hit with just about any cartridge powerful enough to penetrate into the vitals will almost definitely die. Problem is, they can’t be relied upon to know they’re dead until after you have been, to some degree, disassembled.
Still, going armed in bear country is only prudent, and in the event of an attack, any gun is going to give you a better chance of survival than no gun. And to paraphrase an old adage, the best gun for bear defense is the gun you have with you at the time.
I concur with the comments above regarding the 12 ga. loaded with slugs, and I would advise bear country travelers to consider carrying one whenever it is feasible. Problem here is, an 8-9 lb. long gun is not a terribly convenient thing to tote around under any circumstance, and it could be a downright nuisance in some situations. Around a campsite, long guns tend to be laid down “somewhere handy”, which may likely not be handy enough when it is most needed. So, a sidearm is called for.
Selecting a bear defense sidearm is inherently a compromise between power and the gun’s handling/carrying properties. An 8-3/8″ S&W .500 might be the optimal choice in terms of pure stopping power, but the gun’s physical size, substantial recoil, and sluggish handling characteristics make it inconvenient to carry full time, slow to bring into action, and, for many, difficult to shoot well. On the other hand, a J-frame Smith .38 is a breeze to carry, fast in the hand, and is generally not considered to be heavy on recoil, but the .38 Spl. is a notoriously mediocre stopper, even on human assailants.
The best choice for most people is going to be, first and foremost, a gun they can handle proficiently and shoot with reasonable accuracy. I’d suggest staying away from extreme physical size; either ultra-lightweight/compact or massive with long, heavy barrel. I’d consider the .357 magnum to be the absolute minimum caliber, as long as the owner doesn’t find the recoil too severe to shoot the gun enough to develop the requisite proficiency. For those who can manage the heavier recoil (and I believe most healthy adults can) he .41 and .44 magnum rounds offer significantly increased performance over the .357, and are available in relatively compact models from Smith & Wesson, Ruger and Taurus, with barrels in the 2-1/2″ to 4″ range, which are both fast handling and handy to carry even for extended periods. Lately, manufacturers have begun installing extra short barrels on their extra large guns, in .454, .480, .460, and .500 chamberings. I’ve fired several of these revolvers, and frankly, I believe that the added benefits of the extra stopping power of these rounds, is more than offset by their unweildy bulk and weight, and positively brutal recoil and muzzle blast. Add to that the substantial cost of ammo, and the performance-restricting effect of those short barrels, and I just don’t feel these guns offer a better choice than the .41 or .44 magnum.
Regardless of the caliber selected, it is absolutely essential to select the right load for it. You want to stay clear of ammo designed specifically for personal defense, which feature fast-expanding, often lightweight, hollow point bullets. On a bear, especially one coming straight towards you, there is no such thing as “enough” penetration with a handgun cartridge, and you’ll get the best penetration from heavy, hard bullets, driven at the highest velocity attainable. For non-handloaders, I’d suggest the excellent premium hunting loads available from Cor-Bon or Buffalo Bore.
To get the maximum effectiveness from your bear gun, you’ll need to invest in a high quality holster. Don’t be tempted to buy one of those “generic-fit”, padded nylon rigs, just because it’s cheap. These things rarely fit any gun perfectly, and the belt loops invariably begin to curl and sag with even light use. Select a holster that is sturdy enough that it doesn’t stretch or shift from the weight of the gun and normal stress from your movements after extended use. It should hold the gun securely during strenuous physical activity, yet be easily accessible in a hurry. Also be sure to consider what sort of clothing and outdoors gear (backpack, waders) you’ll be wearing it with, to insure compatibility.
Finally, if you’re serious about maximizing your chances of surviving a grizzly attack, you absolutely must shoot this gun…a lot! Practice at various realistic ranges, say from 3 out to 30 yards. Handling proficiency and familiarity can be done with low-powered loads, but a good deal of realistic drill-shooting should be done with your choice of bear ammo, firing strings that begin with the gun holstered. Bear in mind that you’re not shooting for groups in these drills; you just need to be (consistently!) accurate enough to hit a target about the size of a cantalope, with multiple rounds, as quickly as possible.
Well, as usual, I’ve found that I can’t keep anything I write short and simple, and I’ll apologize for the length of my comment. I just hope somebody out there finds this useful.
Steve
I’ve confronted a bear in the wild twice and I’m glad to say both times the critter turned and ran. What stands out is the suddenness of the event. I looked up and there he was - close. Once was in Alaska with a loaded rifle 10 feet away - might as well have been home in the closet. If, on either occasion, the bear had charged immediately, I doubt I would have had time to get a handgun out of its holster and certainly no time to aim. A friend who an experienced hunter told me: if you shoot at a bear, the noise may scare him away, just hope you miss otherwise you’ll just piss him off and he’ll kill you. Here in Oregon, I’m more concerned about a big cat coming up behind me on the trail than a bear.
Better be abble to handle a FAST 9mm with full metal Jacket (124 gr.) in a semi than a .12 shotgun that is to cumbersome and or heavy!
Proof: Russian River, Alaska about the incident a couple of years ago….those salmon fishemen that used a 9mm to stop a medium size Brown Bear charge….seven shot needed a point blank….the last two shots in the side of the head..did the JOB!
one of the man had a .12 Pump, never had the time to use it, is friend who saved the day, had a Glock 17 in is holsler attach to is upper belt of is rubber pant boot.
For me: a 9mm for me (and 17 FMJ rounds in the mag)
Esher
A .357 Mag is what I carry in bear country for many reasons. Bear countermeasures are always a compromise so “bear” with me:
I LIVE amongst some of the densest populations of black and grizzly bears in NA. I see more bears going to the woodshed than most people will ever see in their lives, including on TV. And I’m talking up close and personal.
First off, I dont read “bear attack” fables, why would I? I tramp around the woods day and night amongst the bears, cougars, wolve(erine)s and what have you without fear. And I’m not trying to sound like some tough guy - its just common sense: the first thing to realize is that the likelihood of being attacked in the first place is VERY small. I’m not saying dont protect yourself, all I’m saying is RELAX. Critters smell fear and any countermeasures you bring with you are USELESS if you are shaking like a leaf and peeing down your leg. To this day, a close call still (and probably always will) scare the bejeebus outta me so I pick something quick and handy. The undergrowth here is jungle-like, the slopes steep and if not slippery, rocky - carrying a rife in a ready position in any bear country is usually not an option and slinging a gun does little for portability in the undergrowth and is as useless as leaving it in camp in terms of pulling it in an emergency when you are terrified. So a rifle/shotgun is not what you’d call ideal for bear defense. And extremely heavy. If I lugged a 12 ga everywhere I went I wouldn’t get anywhere, especially at altitude and I’d ruin a good gun. (I’m out in the woods every day.)
Second, bears are flesh and blood not some horror story feind, although their size and strength can make them seem otherworldly. People who dont know any better think if you wound a bear, it will attack. I dont care what the nursery rhymes say - every bear I ever shot ran like stink, screaming to beat hell. I’d like to propse a test for all the .357 doubters: I’ll spray you with pepper spray then once you recover I’ll shoot you with a .357 then you tell me which one hurt the most and which one took the fight out of you more. Yes, a gun is lethal force but any bear that charges a human needs to be put down anyway. Besides, tabasco sauce only temporarily deters man-eaters and emboldens them over time, compounding the problem. Trust me, there is no shortage of bears and nothing bothers me more than some office dweeb from New York telling me I can’t shoot bears - which is perfectly legal, especially for self defense.
Third - why do you suppose so many “wounded” bears shot with high-powered rifles continue to attack as if unhurt? Why do you suppose the 12ga is touted as an excellent bear-stopper? Could it be that the uber-mags so popular in grizzly country are terrible at stopping something at point-blank ranges? I think so. A shotgun or handgun will never take elk at 600 yards, but a 12ga or anything .357 and up will obliterate anything within bear attack range. A .357 is just much easier and faster to handle, if a round fails you have 5 more at the pull of the trigger, stays clean in its holster, is less likely to be knocked away in a scuffle, has more close-in stopping power than a rifle and in the case of pumps/autos is a more reliable action and compared to bolts/singles has more firepower. There’s probably more reasons but I digress. Armed with a high-powered revolver a shotgun simply makes no sense to me. Bird hunting I take just the shotty - a “measly” 20GA which is more than enough. Hunting with the rifle, I pack the .357 - in an encounter, the rifle drops in the dirt and the handcannon is out an ready in a flash. A can of tobasco sauce is a no-brainer to be used only as a back-up or last resort. Consider this: wind, which is common in the mountains, renders bear spray USELESS at best if not downright dangerous.
Oh, and to answer the question in the first post - I would and have used a 30-30 to take grizzlies, its no pipsqueak. If you cant kill things with a 30-30 you dont belong in the woods. The whole .357-cant-take-a-bear issue is spawned by people underestimating a gun’s power, just like nothing less than a 300mag wont take elk - please! And hunting a bear with a handgun and defending yourself with one are 2 totally different situations.
My 0.02, but I’m sure the debate will rage on, spurred by hearsay and theories from people who see movies and think bears stalk the woods preying mostly on virgin backpackers and nothing less than Bruce Willis flying an A10 dropping napalm can stop one.
So, have you defended yourself from an attacking grizzly bear with a .357.
The original point of the post was to say that yes, you can kill a bear with a .357 Magnum, but can you consider it a reliable stopper in an attack by a grizzly (not brown, black or cinnamon)? I don’t think it should be considered a reliable stopper against a bear that is actively attacking. But I’m not a big game hunter, and my experience is limited in this area.
Teddy Rosevelt wrote a book called ‘Hunting the Grizzly Bear’…. I’ve had the opportunity and priveledge to read it. His accounts are wide, broad, and not only from his own experiences but from other successful hunters of that era which he knew and trusted to be honest in their recountings.
One thing most of them have in common is that a Grizzly Bear is one hell of a bastard to kill. Not always, but many times, the animal has been mortally wounded through lungs or heart, and still charging defiantly, killing and slashing, flying blood and spittle from it’s fangs. The only way to REALLY drop it instantly, the kind of instant you need in many close-quarter surprise encounters, is to brain it. Even a .44 mag or a good hunting rifle is not going to stop a grizzly dead in it’s tracks, if it already has an aggressive mind for you. Hunting a Grizzly from far off is one thing, you can shoot and let it die. When youre thirty feet away from one coming down on you from a bush, nothing short of an instant kill will suffice. Any body shot from ANY calibre short of rocket propelled grenades, will not stop a 600 pound grizzly.
Head shots are your only real chance. The .357 caliber definitely has enough penetration to get past the armor plate that a bear uses for a cranium. the rest boils down to being a legendary marksman, and the remaining 99% of your little tiny chance for survival would depend on blind luck and a couple gallons of adrenaline.
OK here’s where I want to chime in. The .357 magnum is great cartridge. It is the cartridge of choice for many shooters and makes many kills for a great number of hunters. But wake up and smell the coffee. The .357 magnum would be a marginal round at best to carry in bear country. A .44 magnum with the appropriate “bear load” would be my first choice. Better yet if you can handle the recoil and the price get the .454 Cassul from Freedom Arms, Inc. and load it with -260-grain semi-jacketed soft points with a blistering 1,805 F.P.S. Muzzle Velocity that hit like a Mack® truck with 1,880 ft.-lbs. of Muzzle Energy. But for me I choose the .44 mag since I can shoot it accurately and not end up with a sore hand after a day of shooting at the range.
And remember while you are enjoying the outdoors hiking and fishing that you are on his turf. And a bear, grizzly or black, is a very savvy and unpredictable animal that should always be given the right of way.
one word-.475 linebaugh or .480 ruger with 400 grain honady’s
One might be reminded of the seven second rule. Mamals, human to bear can run a minimum of seven seconds without a blood supply. That means no heart, no lungs. What happens is the muscles contract to supply blood to the brain until there is no more blood in the system. Kind of like a fall back auto heart system.
It is the seven second rule that accounts for an animal taking multiple hits and still running down the hunter, or just running away.
No animal can run if there is no brain function. We achieve no brain function be destroying either the brain or the spinal cord at the base of the brain.
MOST bears will leave you alone. I have personally encountered 13 different black bears in the Shasta/Trinity forests of Northern California with no problems. However, If a bear doesn’t run away, try to keep your composer and stand tall. Talk to it like a big dog, show your size and raise your voice but don’t antagonize the animal. If it continues to advance, slowly aim your .44 magnum in it’s direction. Revolvers are more reliable and longer barrels pack more velocity. Firmly brace the weapon with both hands, exhale and slowly squeeze the trigger while aiming for the center of mass. If you’re scared (most likely) you stand a poor chance for aiming at any specific areas. Go for the center of mass for your best chance of survival. Only in exteme cases or if the bear is on you should you try for the head and neck. Out of the 13 bears and 2 bobcats I have encountered, 1 face to face staredown with a Cougar frightened me more than all of the rest combined. With prayer, and being unarmed I bluffed my way out of that one near Crater Lake Oregon.
Well, I say that a 500 mag. is the perfect round for grizzlys. It has enough knock-down power to drop the bear and leave it there.
Although, a 357 mag. will do great for most situations requireing a little distance. Also, I’m with the 41 and 44 mag. They also have decent knock-down power
Syd, your post has brought forward many quality answers to your question. I believe it was Dan who mentions the practical part of the senario. Relax!
But, that takes alot of personal will power and training. “Focus” is a very hard skill to master under a threat, and essential to proper shot placement.
If a person has the time, most anything will get the job done. The .357 mag is a fine weapon and I carried one for over 20 years of a 35 year law enforcement carrier. They had to pry it from my fingers when the switch was made to high capacity autos.
I am a Police rangemaster with 20 years experience.
Yet, the hardest thing to teach someone under attack is to “relax”. It can happen, but unless you practice shooting under stress, most humans don’t do well.
Most humans practice the “spray and pray” method of handgun shooting. That’s why highly trained officers usually fire through one complete magazine in a fire fight. The target is seldom hit, until they start to realize they better “focus”, or run out of ammo.
An attacking bear, hit with the proper shot in the brain will stop. Snipers call the shot the “apricote shot”, and when hit, the target will drop.
Problem is that the apricote is moving up & down and left & right. The apricote is also, “SMALL”.
Also, the bullet needs to get into the brain. Pistol Ball rounds will bound off. Soft points can enter, but may also bound off. Hollow points will cut into the skull, as the sharp edge can catch a bone and dig into the target. Don’t be cheap with your ammo and bullet selection.
12 Ga. slugs, brenneke style, have the mass and sectional density to cause massive damage to flesh and bone. Even if they don’t hit the apricote, the round will destroy the skull at close range, with even a near miss.
Buckshot does not have the sectional density to do the job. The round pellets when hitting at angles are great for bounding off hard angled surfaces such as a bears skull or a car windshield.
In Law enforcement we train to shoot buckshot against hard surfaces such as the ground or the side of a building infront of the target. The reason being that the pellets will fly @ 4-6″ off that surface once they change direction. Great for hitting objects under cars or against concrete buildings.
Syd, thanks for the question, and I hope all that read the comments, from everyone posted, realize that we will all learn from others experience. There is no absolutely right answer to every situation.
My best anwser to the problem of an attacking bear is to not put yourself into the situation in the first place. Unless your the food source, make lots of noise and give the animal time to move off. Of course, like Mike stated, “lions are a different situation all together, and they will stalk you”.
A few folks I’ve encountered in Anchorage and Homer like the .44 magnum mainly because it’s portable enough to always keep with you, and the main benefit of having it is that with a .44 mag in your hand, it helps keep you from (panic) running, which will trigger the bear’s predatory response of charging you at 35mph.
One creative option (tongue in cheek) would be to carry Def-Tec “flash-bang” distractionary devices as a bear survival tool. When you set one of these bad boys off, the concussive shock wave and flash might scare the bear away, but it will definitely put you on the ground in a simulated “dead” pose, which will be useful in having the bear feel it has triumphed and the bear walking away.
Seriously though, the best tool is avoidance, and second best tool (if the situation is truly dire enough to use a firearm) is having the willpower to shoot immediately for the best available target. I’m heading up to Homer and Kenai this June, and I intend to take both a S&W 500 (for portability around camp and
in the river fishing) loaded with 440gr hard cast bullets AND a 12 gauge slug Remington Marine Magnum.
I’ve owned and shot my S&W model 57 .41 magnum for 20 years, and it’s extremely comfortable and accurate to shoot, but I just don’t think it’s nearly adequate for bears that are aggressive enough to warrant lethal force.
These days I tend to have much more respect for any animal than for most humans. Animals are inherently honest about what they do, simply protecting their survival. And although
I revere and respect these magnificent bears, like humans some of them are indeed bastards that hunt humans and will not back down. It all still boils down to that split-second that you’ll have to recognize the threat and respond accordingly.
I offer these thoughts purely in the spirit of helping you find a balance between enjoying nature and being properly prepared for the unexpected.
I’ve had so many thoughts occur to me as I read through these postings…
I grew up in N. Minn. were wolves were commonplace; moved to MT as a young teen and spent plenty of time camping and fishing in bear country. My Dad never owned a “bear gun” until I gave him a Super Blackhawk.
I now have small children of my own, and cannot get comfortable with the thought of taking them into and back country without come serious firepower. The reason being, I believe in large part due to the outlawing of bear and lion hunting in CA about twenty yrs ago, bear and lion populations in MT have grown incredibly as these large predators seek lower population densities. In the last two years there have been multiple instances of bears and lions in our largest cities (just very large towns by most of the nation’s standards, but still!).
I haven’t been stalked by a lion, but I have friends who have, and every story echos the comment above — they are the scariest thing out there.
To the point… the ballistics of a 12ga. slug prove out at roughly equivalent to two rounds from a 44 mag. As for the portability factor, there are pistol grips and laser sights, which can do a lot for maneuverability and accuracy.
While there remains a speed of draw issue, it can be minimized by the first rule of safety in bear country — be aware. “Stumbling” upon a griz can indeed happen, but if it does happen there is no real excuse for not being alert to the possibility and reading to react instantly.
My choice of weaponry is as follows: 12 ga. w/ slugs, 44 mag, 357 mag, 10 mm, 9mm.
Control is absolutly a factor, and I need firearms that can be managed by my wife as well as those I can handle effectively. Packing around 20 pounds of guns and ammo on a day hike may not be to some people’s preference, but I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Some pretty sage advice in this thread. For myself, a 4″ S&W 686P with 180gr Buffalo Bore. Fairly easy to carry, accurate as all git out. To be effective, recommend a lot of fast dry fire and live practice from different positions. And make it all double action.
In response to MJM, I grew up in the Northern Blue Ridge of NC and was raised on the 44 mag! Great versatile gun and has done wonders for me with wild boar deer etc. I am an avid day hiker and some backpacking ranging from the AT to great areas like Linville, I like yourself see the need for the protection but also want to enjoy myself without the heavy burden of that big 44 I use on deer hunts. So I purchased a Smith and Wesson 329PD 44mag. It weighs about 25 ozs has a 4″ barrel and feels in the hand just like any other large frame just less weight. I carry it side holstered and shoulder an equal amount of time and honestly forget its there after a while. I HIGHLY recommend this gun for anyone other then maybe the alaskan wilderness fisherman who probably should get the 500 Survival kit. In the Blue Ridge and the adjacent smokeys we run into some good 200-300 lb mamas that can be scarey but more threatening if cornered. I have not had the chance to see what my 44 is going to do to a bear but I can tell you its rolled some good size hogs and dropped deer in there tracks. I will caution you that the recoil is MASSIVE with big game stoppers like the buffalo bore ammo I carry in it. But you can get used to it at the range with 44 spcl good enough to learn to control it work your way up to good 44 mags and then try a few buff bore ammo to know what its gonna do. I recommend a good pair of gloves with those!! I put 50 rounds of 200gr 44 mag and had a huge swole hand the next day even with the gloves!! But with max loads I feel like the average hiker like you and myself have a great chance of protecting our little ones with a gun like this. My girl can even stand a few rounds of the 44 mag, I’m saving the big stuff for a “need to know” basis only so shes not too skeeerred! Hope that helps buddy!
Brad
Tradd2214@yahoo.com
I would say 12 gauge would be the best
The fact of the matter is though, is that bear spray is THE best deterrent against a charging grizzly.
You do not need to score a direct hit since it comes out as a spray
If youre shooting at one with a gun, you basically have one chance, because the griz is gonna get a hell of alot angrier if you merely wound it which is highly likely considering their skulls are massive
If I was up against a charging griz, I’d much rather have spray than a gun. Not to mention this prevents serious injury to the bear
I grew up hunting in Alaska. Routinely we carried shotguns with slugs if we were in the hunting party but didn’t have a tag. Everyone else that had a tag for big game had 300 Win Mag, 7mm Mag or 30.06 for Moose, Bou or Blackies.Never had the nuts to look for Griz. Just a healthy respect for them and and keen eye with a gun at ready. Every abled body that was in bear country did also even kids.Different culture up there. If you run out of gas or make a wrong turn you can die. We hunted, fished and traveled in groups all well armed. The more people with guns and skills the better.Teens and women carried 357s as back ups and the men 44 mags. It sucks packing out a moose with a shotgun and a mag on you but it beats the alternative. I have had a Griz come upon a moose kill once and was glad I was with friends and at age 13 had a 20 gauge Winchester Pump with 5 Slugs in it and more in my pocket. Luckily the bear backed off. Later in life I worked in State and Fed LE. My weapons choices for bear country haven’t changed much. However I would only carry a 357 if it was the largest revo I could shoot extremely accurately. Check out Mark Coates online. A SC Trooper who popped a bad guy several times with a 357 and the bad dude got off one shot from a 22 that entered under the trooper’s arm and missed his vest but severed his aorta. Coates was dead on I95 and the A Hole lived to go to SCDC. The next year all State LE in SC bought Glocks in 40 S&W. I have 40s,45s,44Mag and a 357 but if you are going to carry a gun that fits in gun leather get a 44 Mag at Minimum if you might see a Griz. When I hit age 14 I got a 44 to man up from the 357 and a 12Ga too. Nothing beats a 12GA slug either.I have seen it perform in LE and in the field against everything but Cougars.My next door neighbor in AK killed a Griz defending a hunting partner who was using a high powered rifle, the caliber escapes me. He took the wounded charging bear at about 30 yards with a 12. He considered it a life saving event and uses the bear’s pecker bone as a swizzle stick in his home bar and its scrotum to cover the stick shift knob in his truck. I guess he showed that bear! A girl I went to HS with carried a 12Ga to school after being attacked by wild dogs (perhaps they were wolves, wild dogs usually don’t make it through the winter there) and was later charged by a bear. Guess those were the good ole days. She dropped off the scattergun at the principal’s office every morning and picked it up on the way out. It was in Anchorage Hillside area not out in the bush and she was a middle schooler at the time. If you are too lazy to carry a long gun, you deserve to be bear bait. Our troops wear body armor and tote a long gun in 120 dgree heat defending our country daily.So does the Border Patrol.So You can carry a 6 or 7 pounder in bear country. If it feels like too much then lose ten pounds or hit the gym. Hunters and guides do it daily. What is your excuse?
The 870 is also nice for fending off other combat fishermen on the Russian and Kenai Rivers. I’ve seen more human confrontations due to tangled lines or favored spots on fishing streams than bears in the wild period. You really have more to fear from Cougars, Rabid animals, and Serial Killers than bears. If Treadwell had any sense and a good shotty he would be back at Katmai today just in time for the Salmon Runs and the Midnight Sun. Natural Selection at its finest I guess… Notice the intials for Bear Spray… B.S. In LE I have experienced people die from OC spray going down their throat and I have also known an officer that nearly got stabbed to death after spraying a guy with OC.Shoot em’ Dano!
Stow food away, make noise,stay away from food sources, carry a Shotgun and a 44Mag or something close to each that you can drive tacks with. Respect Bears and Pray they stay away.Its that easy or just stay home and Veg on the net in a locked home outside of bear country. That’s the best bear protection available. Take Care and God Bless.
Im not a hunter, but i do enjoy shooting. So im not really up on what caliber you need to bring down what ever. We are starting to get a black bear population in the area that my wife and i backpack in. I usually carry my 40S&W sig. And so far the only time ive had to unholster it is when some idiot came into our camp one night from out of no where. But with bears getting more common, i would like something a little more potent. I recenly bought a keltec plr-16 for just a fun range gun. It measures 13 inches long and weighs 3 pounds unloaded. It shoots the 223 and accepts ar-15 mags. I realize this is a very small round ( 22 caliber ) But with the wide variaty of military ammo on the market, including armor piercing, i wonder how that would handle going through the heavy bone on a black bear or a wild hog.
When I walk in areas that are suspect to predators that are equally or more dangerous than me. I walk slow, smell the air, listen for noises, stop every 20 to 40 yards and look back behind me for 5-15 seconds. This habit was developed from hunting. Game will sit tight and wait for you to pass then sneak off behind you. This is also helpful for spotting animals that are stalking you. Keep open space around you for increased reaction time, stay off game trails and look for fresh signs. I recommend carrying the largest magnum revolver (more dependable) that you are comfortable shooting or slug loaded 12 gauge. If you’re too weak or you feel the pistol/shotgun is too heavy, then you probable don’t belong in that dangerous area you have choosen to hike. In that case, go with others that can protect you. Going with a partner that also knows how to shoot, alway makes the trip more pleasent and less stressful.
The .357 should do fine with a 180gr buffalo bore or hard cast handload. They will have no problem busting through bone. I don’t think caliber is really the issue (assuming a minimum of .357) here. Whether a .357 bullet or a .429 bullet some luck is going to be involved, assuming you have practiced enough to make good shots. Hitting a moving bear head is only going to happen at a very close range, and hitting the vitals center mass may or may not stop the bear attack. The sound alone of a full power magnum touched off may send him running as well, or it may not.
Also, will the average person practice much with a 454 casull or 500 magnum? No. They won’t it would hurt too much, and be ULTRA expensive. The weight would also be a major pain for packing around as well, unless you know you are in the heart of Grizzly country. A .357 is such a practical gun, that even a woman can shoot with full power loads, cheaply, and without too much pain. It is affordable and easy to practice with, carries well, and packs just enough punch to bust bones with the correct load. If you factor grizzlies out of the equation and ar looking at smaller bears and big cats, it makes even MORE sense as the gun of choice. You won’t have time or space to use a long gun if you are attacked probably and you won’t want to carry a long gun around everywhere you go, so forget about the shotgun or rifle. Those would be used for HUNTING a bear, not defending against an attack. Separate issues.
what would a desert eagle or uzi or m16 do to grizzly bear
Shooting a grizz in the shoulder is standard practice when they charge you. Then they spin around like a top and cant move. I was a hunting guide in the yukon for 5 years and thats what i was told to do if one charged. As for the hope a hand gun will help you your sadly mistaken. The smallest you should have for self defence is a 12 gauge with 3 1/2 magnum slugs, but if your hunting a rifle is more then sufficient. But the ideas to stay away from them and they wont be a problem unless they make themselves one.
I have a Glock 10mm with a 15 round magazine. There are companies such as CorBon that make hunting rounds in 10mm. These rounds have 700 ft/bls of energy at the muzzle which is more than the most powerful .375 mag. rounds (the 10mm is really a .40 auto mag.). Now foot pounds of energy isn’t the only thing to consider in a gun, caliber, gun weight, bullet weight, accuracy and recoil are also important and the 10mm not only beats the 357 in energy but also in caliber. Heavy 200 grain rounds are available for Both the 357 and 10 and both are accurate rounds (good balisticts). The recoil on the 10mm isn’t too bad and it carries lots of rounds. The 10mm is close to the .41 mag. in energy and while the .44 mag. has more, it is also bulkier, heavier, has a lot of recoil and doesn’t carry as many rounds. I always carry my 10mm when I am in the deep woods, it gives one a chance against a bear and will stop pretty much anything else (including bad guys).
a shotgun would be great (12 gauge Express Magnum) but you would have to carry it which could be an issue given its weight in relation to a revolver. Then, if charged you have to get it around and fire it in seconds. Not everyone can do this.
i much prefer to carry a short barreled holstered 44 mag (or larger magnum revolver. you are not shooting at distance. a charging grizzly will be on top of you in no time. generally by the time you see or hear it, decide to draw and fire it is on you. Your shot will likely be within 25 feet. Good luck with the Glock 10 at that range. I think that even if you hit him you are in big trouble. You will not stop his forward progress with a 10mm round. A 357 mag versus a grizzly? Please lets be serious. I have a friend who took a brown bear with a .270 winchester at over 200 yds. However, he had a tag. He is a great marksman. He was lucky. He was not being charged. he saw the bear. shouldered his rifle. took aim and fired. The bear most probably did not even know where the shot came from before he fell.
I would feel even better with a .460 mag or a .500 mag revolver. if i had one i would carry it. However a long barreled revolver starts to get into the issue of drawing and firing with haste. I can draw a 3 or 4 inch barreled gun a heck of a lot more reliably than i can a 6 inch or longer barreled gun.
i would not carry anything longer than a 6 inch barrel for this situation. i cant draw and fire the long barreled guns reliably. you certainly dont need the extra accuracy. You wont be shooting from 50 yards away. if you do you better be prepared to answer some questions to the forest service if you dont have a grizzly tag.
A pistol makes me nervous in this situation. It might misfire. it might have the safety engaged. i might …..
My opinion would be at least a 44 mag and you better be able to handle it in an attack situation a 12 guage shotgun is a good choice with slugs also.If im in the woods and attacked i will kill whatever is my attacker im more valuble than a bear or cat no matter what the forest service says i have a right to protect myself as a human being.
This is a very interesting discussion. I do not know the answer, but I travel/camp/hike in rural areas of PA and there are bears. No, not big brown bears, but black bears are very present, and although I do not hunt and I do not enjoy killing animals, I am certainly interested in knowing what is my best chance at surviving a confrontation where pleasant retreat is not an option. I see that the discussion is largely wrapped up at this point, but there has been a lot of information presented here that is worthy of pondering. Personally, I have not seen the 700ft/lb Cor Bon loadings for the 10mm. I have seen nothing more powerful than the Winchester silver tip loads with ~640 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Curiously, the hottest load I have seen for the 44 magnum was from Wolf at ~1200 ft/lbs, the Russian company better known for making steel cased AK and AR ammo. I wonder why the American manufacturers are underloading their ammunition. Although self-defense ammo (intended for smaller- than-bear animal or human aggressors) doesn’t need to be ultra-powerful, it would be nice if more reasonable hunting loads were available. Not all of us hand load! I’ll check the Buffalo Bore line out. If anyone else has anything to say on this topic, I’d love to hear it.
Thanks to Syd for bringing up this topic for discussion, and for skillfully evading the taunts of the antagonistic SL, who seems to have inserted herself into the discussion for her own political reasons rather than for the sake of furthering thought on the topic at hand. Overall, this has been a more balanced discusison than many I’ve seen.
–Alan
Love this discussion! Please take a look at my blog at www.widewatervoyager.com entitled A Gun for Alaska! Let me know what you think!
i think we’re all leaving out a certain rifle i dont doubt the the 12 ga with slugs one bit i know it will stop whatever mother earth decides to throw at you, but have we mentioned the effects of putting a 44 mag or 357 mag in a rifle it increases the power greatly. marlin has got an exellant line of rifles out. put some buffalo bore loads in there and you got your self a pretty decen t stopper. but the one i think we completely left out is the 45-70 in a lever gun the 45-70 although smaller than a 12 ga slug has proven its self on numerous occasions against bears. marlins also got the new guide gun out its a light wieght rifle 18.5 inch barrel 5 shots of 45-70 when i heard about it i thought it would be hard on the shoulder but surprisingly its not and if your willing to carry a shotgun around this might be for you
Hey all. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in the ring. First anything you carry is a compromise because there is no such thing as a “perfect” weapon for any and every encounter. So I’ll just tell you what the gear I choose to carry is and why. My first line of defense is a Stoeger 12 gauge stainless steel double barrel shotgun.Its barrel is cut to 16 inches with a fiber optic front sight. It provides a failsafe being a double barrel and is very light and handy. I keep it loaded with breneke slugs. OR. I carry my stainless marlin 45-70 guide gun. Its loaded with hardcast 500 grainers. I carry the marlin when I want “extra”? firepower. Usually when I have the family with me, and I pass the stoeger off to the wife. My children are to young to pack heat however I DO agree that if capable kids should be armed to their ability when in a dangerous area. I also ALWAYS have my stainless taurus 44 magnum on me loaded with hard cast. My reaction method is similar to a human threat. Fire until the threat is stopped. Two shotgun slugs, drop the shotgun draw the 44 mag fire 6 rounds. There really isnt time to reload. Thats what I carry for protection in the woods.
The writer says:
“The .357 Magnum has the penetration to reach vital organs in the bear, but what are the chances of making that shot in an emergency?”
Am I missing something? So the .44 magnum ALSO has the penetration to reach vital organs in the bear, but what are the chances of making THAT shot in an emergency either?
Odds are very high that if you DO encounter a bear in a threatening situation, you will have precious few moments to do anything. This is because you’ve very likely inadvertently sneaked up on and surprised the bear. You may come upon a bear and its kill, insert yourself between a sow and her cubs, or just catch it off guard.
In Alaska where I live, bears are a regular seasonal concern. I carry a .357 magnum at all times while outdoors. Not primarily for bears though, but for 2-legged predators. Once you get out of town, or if you live out-of-town, assistance from law enforcement is pretty hard to come by. All you have are around 240 commissioned and 190 civilian personnel covering an area bigger than Texas, California, and Montana combined.
That said though, I know for a fact you can dispatch a brown bear with .357 magnum loads, because I’ve met people who have done it. Bear spray though is just as effective, if not more so, and is what most people here carry. Bears here sometimes get into your trash, and in Anchorage/Palmer/Wasilla, where 2/3 of the state live, there are laws that mandate trash be stored in bear-proof containers, and/or stipulate when you can put it out for collection. I keep a 12-gage magnum for use around our Fairbanks cabin, where we live.
I’ve never had to shoot a bear, and I hope I never do. I would if I had to though, and a .357 will do the job.
I think you are missing something. The basic question is that of defending yourself against an active attack by a grizzly bear. It has been known for sixty years that you can kill a grizzly with a .357 Magnum if you have the luxury of time and position to make the perfect shot.